Explaining tech to kids, resolving favoritism, and balancing gender roles at home with Eric Chan

Qin En 00:01 Hi, I am Qin En and this is the Parents in Tech Podcast. Welcome to Season Two, where we interview dads who are technology company leaders based in Southeast Asia. After hearing from moms in Season One, now it's time to speak to dads who are raising kids while thriving in their careers. Let's find out the stories, challenges, and advice they have for us. In this episode, we speak to Eric, Lead Product Manager at Grab. Eric started his career as the Design Engineer at Dyson before working in product roles at Razer, Igloo Home, and Property Guru. He’s a Passion Explorer at night and recently started a video podcast, Your Grit Story, featuring the stories of founders, leaders, and change-makers who live by passion and perseverance. Eric is a father to two sons, ages six and three. Qin En 01:09 Hey, Eric! Welcome to the Parents in Tech podcast. Thank you for joining me this morning. And to begin with, can you tell us a bit more about your family? Eric 01:17 Thanks, Qin En for having me on the show. So, I have two kids who are very active sons. Trio, a six year old, and (inaudible name), right? So, they’re really, really active. And my wife is a nurse at the frontline. So, she’s (inaudible), but due to the pandemic, she’s too busy with managing that as well. Qin En 01:37 Wonderful. So, tell me a bit about how you met your wife. Eric 01:40 Wow, Qin En. That is a great question to start with. So, I have known my wife since our secondary one, yes. So… Qin En 01:48 Wow. Eric 01:09 So, childhood since like how they would call it. So, when I was 13 years old, we were (inaudible) one. We had some episodes before, and I think we were reunited and we know each other again right when we were in undergrad. And then saw us going [out) with each other more. And that’s how we know and get to know each other. Qin En 2:05 Beautiful. So, throughout this entire journey, starting from secondary one, when did the discussion of having children come into the picture? Eric: 2:12 That’s a great question, QIn En. So, both of us are Christians, right? So, going into the marriage, we have an intention of building a family. To marriage, even pre-dating, pre-marriage, when we are dating, we also talked about having kids. How many kids? There’s a lot of alignment… okay, do you want four kids, two kids, five kids, ten kids? So, we have to, I think that is sort of an alignment for us. We’re happy at two and we are stopping at two, I guess. Qin En 2:39 Oh, wonderful. Okay, so why two, right? Is it because of how you, guys, were brought up? The kind of families you’re in? Was there a lot of disagreement or was it both of you? It just sort of led to it and there wasn’t much discussion from them? Eric 2:52 Great questions, Qin En, on the two, right? So, we discussed about this. If one kid, we think that it might be a bit lonely, like has no playmates or share toys with, and not being or has no opportunity to share his things. We look at three or four. If its three… I’m the third child, I’m the third boy in my family, I have two brothers and one has distance. So, we comparing both families as well. As between the two, it’s a good balance because we are one is to one, right? For example, dad can take of the older one, usually, right? And then mom thinking of the younger one, So, one is to one is a good one. There'll be a bit of a challenge to manage, so we end up aligning it to two. Qin En 3:25 Got it. Got it. And so now your two sons, aged three and six, how do you explain what you do at work to them? Eric 3:33 Wow. This is a tough question. So just for context, right? So, I'm doing product management for years and I loved this job. And how I will tell my six year old? Definitely not the two years old. Maybe about six years old is I solve problems. I'm a problem solver. So, he loves lego. So, I play lego with him a lot. He build things from lego growing up. So I will have a lot of conversations with him around… Hey, what are you building? What is this for? What problem does it solve? And to that, I also kind of inculcate this value of looking of, or actually every product has a reason for as this thing, right, in the world. Qin En 4:03 Right. Wow. Okay. That's really nice. So, bringing his toys and what he does for free time, to help them understand better know what you're doing. That's fascinating. So, over the past six years, Eric, how would you describe your parenting journey? Maybe if I can ask you to kind of divide it into chapters, walk me through what those chapters are. Eric 4:20 Well, if it’s six years… So, if it’s 16 years, I think I feel like that’s a lot of chapters or just six chapters would be when we have the first one. I think the first year of the first one is probably the toughest moment for us. From being just married couple to father and mother, being a first-time parent, I think is always a huge adjustment. I did the first year, there was a lot of adjustment, alignment, different little quarrels and there. So there has to be a lot of composition alignment. And the second year is where, hey, I think we’ve settled on the first one, she went for a second one. And that's where I think typically two to three years get is where it happens. And the second one is kind of growing up and he's like at first or second year and the other one is probably like a four years boy. So we have to balance that. So, lots of alignment conversations during our dinners, we talk about how do we balance out. Even household chores, we have a hope to maintain like household chores, which school to send to. We also add those little details that you have to discuss about. Qin En 5:16 Okay, so I'm going to double click it to the first year you were a parent, you stated it was challenging. Talk me through perhaps what was one of those experiences that was particularly tough or challenging. Eric 5:27 Great question. Let me just rewind back to the first year. So, the first year, when the first, second, or the first minute that the baby's out, that is the moment… Okay, this is getting really private. I mean, this is… okay… a real there, so is there no way to like prepare fully until it happens sometimes. I mean, you can prepare on how nicely the room, the room and pull for lessons, and all that, but it's really boils out to… Hey. This is happening. Just have to kind of keep on run and run, right? So, the first year, it's a lot of challenges. Everything is new. When the first time you're feeding a baby, first time you need to manage the situation in the room. And, of course, supporting the wife, supporting the mother is very important, right on the first year. And that's where a lot of emotional struggles as well. There is a lot of adjustments that, hey, it's not just the two of us. It's like a hundred percent. And he or she is put on like a share. It isn’t like property. Like, there’s a shared percent between us. So it's a life. It's not like a property or not a car, right? It's a person. So, a lot of emotions does affect the decision-making. Qin En 6:27 Got it. And also thinking back about the part that was really tough, was it related to work or was it just adjusting to the schedules of the new bond? Like did the work component come into play? Eric 6:39 I think both of us are very objective. We are able to prioritize and we're able to manage work and life in a way. I would say it's more towards the adjustment phase where it's new boy or girl and everything is new. And we have to really think about every decision that we make for the kid, I guess. Yeah. It’s the for one. Qin En 6:56 Yup, yup, yup. So, as always the most surprising part about being a dad, something that perhaps you weren't expecting, but in the first year you're like, wow, it's like that. Eric 7:05 Yeah. In terms of expectations, every couple is different. Every family is different. But, for my case is that my wife does expect me as that to be more involved than I wanted to be, I guess. And that made me realize that, hey, actually, parenting-wise, being, incompatible, I think the involvement for both has to be almost equal, I guess, because so, that, we are both involved and being there for the kids, that is important. So there's a bit of an adjustment phase. Like the first three or six months, it's like, okay, I need to do this. I thought this is supposed to be your job or my job, right? So, I think that's where, okay, so that's the way we draw a line and getting closer to each other. And we discuss about things that align. And after three, four years, it's pretty like a default thing, like a standard. Okay. You know, you are in charge of ABC. I'm in charge of DEF kind of thing. Qin En 7:52 Yeah, they are wonderful. It sounds like an equilibrium has been rechecked because now you also are more confident. And I'm sure the confidence also came about when you woke up with your second son, because it's almost, you know, the routine, you know the drill. One part that you mentioned, Eric, it's about being there to support your wife. So, could you perhaps elaborate on what was one or two things that you did that was particularly helpful, and then you will do it again if you had the chance to. Eric 8:16 Yeah, I think it's taking a hint and you know that you need to do this. But, I think going beyond it, just taking, for example, I mean, my wife likes to see it… hey, you know… actually before she asked about it, you have really done it. Little things like making milk, for example, or buying a milk powder. So all these things that less, I mean, I confessed it, obviously, right. So, oh, I kind of like do things that a mom does more, so we try to make sure that it's balanced. And just really thinking ahead. And I guess my work does help to pick the thing that we need to right, and I'm thinking, hey, you know, before we end the meeting, you all have to set expectations. So, I think it's kind of coherent in that sense. I'm able to overdeliver, you know, in a setting of family. Qin En 8:59 Nah, it's those days. And so how did being a dad also shape the way you work? Eric 9:06 Great question. Yeah, so, I think work in life, especially now in the times of pandemic working from home, it has really been very infused together. And in the family, how does it apply to the world? So, I think it's two-way. It's not a one-way thing from family to work. A lot of communication evolve and a lot of alignment evolve in terms of scope-wise, in terms of process in a way in family. I mean, it has to be a process as well. Okay, what time should we do this? Is there a lights off timing? You know, so, that routine or that discipline at home helps me to also bring that to work. The kind of discipline of, okay, this meeting is to end on time or this project has to end on time, is to deliver. So, this too really, family and work does make you better at stuff. Qin En 9:47 Yeah. They say that being a parent makes you be a lot more efficient and help you to prioritize things. I'm sure it's something that comes in very helpful as, as your role as a product manager. Eric 9:57 Yeah, for sure. And that manager does manage projects and timeline and dependencies, and whole quality and time and calls. Everything's involved, right? Calls, I need the right calls where I find the right new part of life, where he's finding the right view for diapers where he's onboard, and the right (inaudible) to beautiful life for example. Qin En 10:13 Yeah. So, over the past six years, watching both your sons grew and matured, I'm sure something that is particularly rewarding, but I'm sure that there are also challenges that are involved right. Probably for your youngest son. He just came out of what people like to call the terrible twos. Maybe talk me through a bit more about the challenges throughout this (inaudible) journey that they go through and asking them, not just on the audience, but for myself with a 17-month-old daughter, it's almost like, okay, what should I be ready for? Eric 10:42 Great question. I think they’re just right in time for you. Yeah, I think issue, challenge, challenge facing this few months is that when there's favoritism to the younger one, when it will feel a bit challenged or happy, so, we are trying to balance that as much as we can because the younger one is attention and older ones be independent. So, we think that, you know, if the older one is to himself, we can go, we can attend to. I think it has to be very intentional and very conscious in trying to balance that so that the older one will feel like he is being cared for as much as the younger one. So there is the challenge that we are facing in very, very recent ones in fact. Qin En 11:17 Yeah, right. And I’m curious, how did you notice that? What signs or were there incidents that let your eldest son to feel like you want the more of your attention? Eric 11:27 Yeah. In fact, it just happened yesterday, so, it's so recent. So, I do pick up my kids and sometimes the older one, we leave him a bit later. We pick him up later about six o'clock, and we'll pick up a younger one at about five o'clock. So, you pick them in different timings. And the older one, we feel that, hey, you know, when it's time he comes back for dinner, he will be frustrated. Why can’t I come back together with TT? Why you pick me up late? So, I try to explain to him, because I have meetings from 5:30 to 6 and all that, right? So, a few challenges that we are facing. But, as much as we could, we will, first of all, explain to him why, and because that will help him to be understanding and be realistic, I guess. For second, as much as we can, we have to pick up a way to be more fair to them together. So, there was one incident like sharing toys, for example, where, hey, you know, my TT and Koko is going for the same toys. And sometimes we say, just give to TT, you know, he's younger, younger, and he's weaker and all of those things. But, my wife and I, we discussed and we tried to mediate sometimes, but not every time, sometimes give it to them to study up. But, if things go over the line, then we need to say, hey, look at clock. Let's take turns, five minutes each, that kind of things, then try to be a middle man again. Being in front of manager, right, (inaudible) middleman. Hey, let's take turn. Let's, let's have a plan around this, look around, and they both agree. Okay, cool. Five minutes ago. So, that's just a few examples over here. Qin En 12:42 Nice. So, it sounds like you're like adjudicator, a mediator of sorts. And, of course, Eric, we're on this topic. It comes to the idea of discipline, especially at this age when they are learning how to push the button. So tell me, what does discipline look like for you and your family? Eric 12:57 That’s a good question, Qin En. Regarding disciplining kids, again, I think every parent have unique opinions around this. It's not that we don't believe in canning for example, right? So, but we are more of the soft push at first and we give him warnings. Hey, this is one of the number one or two, or three. If it's beyond the third one, you will have to go to the naughty corner-type of punishment. And a lot of times punishment comes when there is a safety concern, or it is extremely rude. For example, right, manners, right? So, some fundamental one, not “hey, you didn’t perform well,” we don’t do, no, not that kind of a punishment, but disciplining. We tried to go on the soft approach. We also bend down to talk to him, sit down to him. And normally he will listen, the elder one. The younger one, we are still trying to see what was for him. So, I think that is how we, it's the naughty corner for him to go to, he knows it's just outside the storeroom or outside the bomb shelter, so, yeah. Qin En 13:49 Oh, wow. That's so nice. So, it's almost like this routine that you have set, but it's the same time what struck me is creating a safe environment where it's not just about making your children feel bad, right? But, it's also about helping to really help them to understand. Well, where they have control and how they can improve. I'm curious, where did you learn these philosophies among other things of being a parent from books, internet people, family. Tell me a bit more about where you get your source of inspiration and ideas. Eric 14:17 Fantastic question. In terms of idea, I suppose some parents, we always have questions. How do we manage them? And in fact, we have questions for next phase. You know, my other one is going to be P1 next year, it's going to be different. He's going to meet new friends. It's going to be having QRP to Patreon and up to PCs on that. Right? So, every face is different and the inspiration that we get, or the sort of system that we get, the methods that we learn from are from mentors, mainly. So, we have mentors from church, like marriage counselors. They guide us in terms of, hey, you know, we should actually manage this, the cleaning, especially cleaning them up to be a good man and woman. And, also reaching out to experienced parents, mostly friends, a bit more senior friends, that they will have quite a few principles that we pick up, but not everything we can pick off the shelf, we have to see what fits (inaudible). Qin En 15:02 Absolutely. Absolutely. Interesting. And, I guess also on that point, I'm curious, because always the idea of comparison there, especially where you look for other sources online. And so, it's oh, should I send my kid for this course? Am I doing this thing right? Talk to me about whether that (inaudible) like comparison or something that you and your wife go through or lesson? Eric 15:21 Oh, that's a good question. In terms of comparison, I would say that that applies very much to my wife more than myself, I'm not sure. Maybe you tell me, right. You have more guests, your parents, but generally my wife is the one that, hey, let's send him for this course, not courses, right? Classes, classes that do have brain development, brain training. It might be music, swimming, something essential. I think swimming is pretty much quite essential, but brain development, you know, going for classes. Just a fun fact that my eldest one, his first class is when he was nine months old. Qin En 15:55 Okay. What class was it? Eric 15:57 So, it's a brain development. It's called brain feet (?). So, I was with him, we would take turns to bring him there. And there were music. It's like flashcards. It's a lot of different activities. That's why every couple is different for me. I took some time to adjust to it. I say, hey, come on. Like, let's start stressing out. If I see him enjoying, like playing, listen to music? It's fine. I think it's okay. It's just the effort to bring him there. And I think it's fine as well, as long as he enjoys. Qin En 16:19 Yeah, it makes sense. And I think it's really about creating those moments where this can be learning and interesting moments, but less stressful for the children and also for the parents, right? It shouldn't feel like your weekends or your after-hours. It's just all about sending them from place to place after all of that. Eric 16:36 True. It’s different when I bring him to the class physically and I'm with him physically, when he's young, he's like five or he is four. And I leave him for the class for two hours. And after the coffee break and in the meantime, write like read a book, I can listen to podcasts. I can catch up with friends or for coffee. So it's really different. And I think there are fun times in both ways. Qin En 16:55 True, true. So, speaking of podcast, Eric, you started a podcast a couple of months back. Tell me a bit more about this and also how you find the time to do that with everything that's going on. Eric 17:07 Yeah. So, just for the podcast and I respect, really admire you a lot on Parents in Tech podcast, right? We got into podcasts and running, which is Your Grit Story, essentially is really highlighting the passion and the perseverance of leaders, founders, and change-makers. Where they really take a route-less travel and understanding why they do what they do. Every story is unique. So, hence, I started this podcast about seven months ago, purely because I think that there is a way, because we are not big media company to kind of highlight in VC funding, big companies, but we are more what looks like non-profits enterprise and startup companies that need to voice out, right? Of why there's this company as this thing and what problem they're solving. Yeah, so, that is where the motivation is from, really helping them to have a shutout. And as well as reconnecting with them, like I reconnect with/for a friend that I met 10 years ago, for example. And there's another one on one episode of a friend that I met him when he was Premier 4, we were in the same Chinese tutoring class. So, it's a lot of reconnecting with friends and getting to know, hey, you know, what's up this recent years, right? Yeah. Qin En 18:08 Yeah. Beautiful. So, you know, this is, might sound like a bold question, but I feel like I can ask someone who is a parent and a podcaster. One of the things that, of course in podcasting, it's making sure you have a decently nice and quiet environment to do it. You have two sons who are very active. So, how do you find the time? How do you create a space to do these podcast sessions? Eric 18:29 Great question. I think that is really a practical question. Yes, you're right. If my sons are out there right now, outside the room, probably you wouldn't hear me clearly for sure. And you will hear like the door knocking to the gym, right? So, to find time for this podcast is to do chapters of it, right? The recording part of it. and the editing part of it, and the production, right? And, of course, the shouting out in social media channels. So, for the recording, I try to patch them, right? And I take a half-day leave, like three I'm on leave, for example, I’m recording within the afternoon. So, I take leave for the podcast. So, I stick at 2 or 3, typically two. So in one half, half of the days, so that I have them kind of, the effort is continuous, I record them together. That itself is where I find time to recall. And to edit it is at night, not every night, but I try to have alternate nights to, hey, to catch up the editing and come up with designs. I use Canva design and sharing that also is really sufficed me in a way, away in a train or something. When I'm waiting for my son, before on Saturdays on enrichment class, I do sharing on Instagram story. So, it's kind of your first in my life right now. I enjoy that as well in creating these designs and executing this openness. Qin En 19:40 Thank you so much for sharing that, Eric. I think it sounds like this truly it's done from the heart. Right. Just being able to find the time that space to do it. And, of course, you must enjoy it, right. It shouldn't feel like a second job. Otherwise, it's not a lot of fun. Also. Thank you for taking time off to do this podcast. I know doing perhaps three in a row can be quite tiring. I did that once and I was like, at the end of the third one, I was like, ooh, yeah, it does take a bit of social energy. So really, really appreciate it. Awesome. Okay, shifting gears. Let's all right. And since we told us the stuff about consuming knowledge-learning, let's say I put you next to a leading expert in parenting. What would you ask him about? Eric 20:19 Well, if that's the case, I think the question I’ll ask that spends across years in life is that how do we adapt to different phases? It's just so dynamic, right? Like the kids, when he's in preschool to primary school and secondary school and teenagers, different challenges when they are in their teenager years, it’s going to be different. Where we would want him to come home, but don't come home, that kind of things. I mean, with each of that question, I will ask this: How do we adjust? How do we adapt with the different phases? And if there's a library of knowledge and if I can download and not being robotic, but there's a meaty kind of thing, right? There, I think that would be good as well. Qin En 20:55 Got it. And so, on this idea of adapting and changing, right? So, I would say that I would rather, the question I would ask is what were some of the things that you had to adapt to perhaps in a recent six to 12 months? Things that you perhaps weren't expecting, but ended up you had to respond? Eric 21:11 Well, in terms of adaptation, well… it's cause my younger one has started to talk a lot in recent months. Just mentioned what words at home, not in school, at home. When it's three months ago is probably hundreds, but now I'm quite sure it's like a thousand. It can talk and talk and talk and he can reason now. And the most recent challenge or something that you adapt to is where you can quarrel. I mean, they can, they can fight, right? So I think that was three months ago probably couldn't because he'll be like just cry, but now he fights back. So, I think this is a new phase again, to manage real conflicts between siblings. I mean, I think through that, I fought with my brothers, right? So, so, it's a cycle. And I think this is where we need to adapt and to go back to our mentors or even be some books or listen to some podcasts on parenting and to learn from others. In fact, from your previous episodes, I've learned quite a few things as well. For my podcast as well, I also talked to others who are parenting. Just at the most recent episodes. I spoke to Nicole on Fall Off Food Bank Singapore. And it's amazing, four kids. Like how do you manage four kids? She has really a few great parenting lessons to share as well. I see that, you know, they're just different avenues that we can pick these learnings from experience by experienced parents. Qin En 22:23 Absolutely. Okay. So, Eric, we have talked a lot about you, learning and solving. Now let's flip the question on the tool. Let's say today, you could do a book, of course, for you a podcast that you can kind of prepare it for your children, that they will listen to it in many years to come. What will you talk about? Eric 22:40 Wow. That is really a tough question. So, if I want to write a book or a podcast that they can listen to or read, like now, or in 10 years time? Qin En 22:51 Um, no, I would say in 10, 20 years' time. Yeah. Eric 22:54 Yeah. So, I think the content of (inaudible) content is important. It'll be probably kind of doing more in terms of tips, tips of growth, tips of how to learn faster, and tips of how do you manage people relationships. So, if you feel these things are very essential skills that, I mean, we all do learn this. It's cool, right? We all learned this probably in our second job, right? For sure. You like, kind of figuring out, you know, how do we do this? You're thinking, ooh, I should realize that, hey, there's more things to that, right? And, you see that these are not taught in school and there are no lectures or lessons to teach these interpersonal skills, relationship, management skills. So, I think if I would do a podcast, I’ll put more focus on those contexts, so if my kids grow up, they can go to school to learn. And also they can look at this content. Read this book, or at least do these podcasts to learn about, oh, I should read a lot of psychology in it. It is a lot of the personal skills that they can pick up from. Qin En 23:44 Gotcha. And, I think that definitely, it's wonderful, right? Helping the kids to shortcut the learning process. So, I guess also for our parents and audience, because sort of wrap up our conversation for today, if there's one lesson you have learned as a parent in tech, what would it be? Eric 23:59 Well, if there's one lesson that I could share being, being that not just for the kids, but also for the wife, because it's a family unit. And, sometimes you have to focus on the kids then, you know, your wife. So, being there for the family and sometimes being there, sometimes we have to go and cross at work. So, being involved and with their first dental visit, their first day of school, first in primary school, right? So, all this very important events, just being there. And of course, for a lot of events and being involved as well. Yeah. So, I think that's, that's just one more point. I think just for advice is that don't give up dating. So, I think we just have to, we are very intentional. We need to take a leave to go for this, like take a leave for Valentine's day maybe, or maybe not And of course, for a lot of events and being involved in. Yeah. So I think that's, that's just one more point. I think just for advice is that don't give up dating. So I think just have to, we are very intentional. We need to take leave to go for this, like take leave Valentine's day maybe, or maybe not Valentine’s day but (inaudible) week, right? To go off of this so that we still have that relationship of, hey, it's just two of us having a nice meal chatting about life and sharing just don't give up dating. Dating is continual until we are old. So, I think that's the advice for you (inaudible). Qin En 24:58 That is golden, right? Because I think so often it's easy as parents to neglect the relationship we have with our partners, because it's all about the children, but I really, really like an appreciative reminder. Eric, it is such a joy to have you on the show today. If some of our parents, some of our audience would love to connect with you, how can they best do so? Eric 25:19 Just feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn, Eric Chan JQ. Jake is my Chinese name. Connect with me, just (inaudible) Qin En 25:25 Sure we'll do. And, we will also definitely include Your Grit Story podcast link, so that our audience can hear the inspiring stories you have to tell. Eric 25:33 Well, awesome. Qin En 25:34 Eric, thank you so much for joining us today on the show. Such a choice, speaking with you. Eric 25:37 Thank you again for having me. Qin En 25:43 Thanks for listening to the Parents in Tech Podcast, with me your host, Qin En. We hope you were inspired on how to raise kids and build companies. To catch up on earlier episodes or stay updated with upcoming ones, head over to www.parents.fm to join our community of Parents in Tech. There, you can also drop me a question, idea, feedback, or suggestion. Once again, the website, it's www.parents.fm. That's all for this episode, folks. See you next time!