Episode Transcript
Qin En 0:07
Hi, I am Qin En and this is the Parents in Tech Podcast.
Welcome to Season Two, where we interview dads who are technology company leaders, based in Southeast Asia. After hearing from moms in Season One, now it's time to speak to dads who are raising kids while striving in their careers. Let's find out the stories, challenges, and advice they have for us.
In this episode, we speak to Sammy, Senior Sales Manager and Head of Online Sales Organization, Southeast Asia at LinkedIn. Sammy and his wife moved to Singapore a decade ago with the intent of staying for two years, but fell in love with the sunny island and stayed on. He's on a mission to make the days of others better by helping them understand their inner strength.
Earlier this year, he became an Associate Certified Coach by the ICF. Sammy is a father of three children, all aged five and under.
Qin En 01:11
Hey Sammy, welcome to the Parents in Tech Podcast.
Sammy 01:14
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Qin En 01:17
So, to begin with, could you tell us a bit more about your family?
Sammy 01:20
Sure. I have three children and my wife. And my three children are five and under. So my oldest daughter is called Mia. She is five years old. Her birthday is in November. My son, he’s in the middle, he’s called Seb. He's three and a half years old. And my newest addition is Yasmine, who is now nine months old.
So girl, boy, girl, and my wife and I, both from England, and living in Singapore for nine and a half years now. We left the country 10 years ago.
Qin En 01:46
Awesome. I had to ask, how did you meet your wife, and what was the journey like? Where were you before that? And what brought you to Singapore?
Sammy 01:55
So, I met my wife at work. We used to work at a company called buy. at, a small affiliate network, which eventually got acquired by AOL Advertising and I've been in the company for about three and a half years in total. I've been there for two years and my wife joined.
We always got on, but we didn't go out until right at the end of my career there. And then I moved over to a company called O2 (Telefónica UK). And that's how I met Kat. We've both been in digital advertising, and since our career started basically after university, we were in London together for maybe four or five years in total. And I've done a bit of traveling, Katherine had never done any traveling. She was really keen too, and I was ready for a career change. I was quite happy to leave O2 and find a new job. And I got to that stage where, "We gotta do something new outside of England, or I find a new job in London and who knows how long we'll be kind of stuck in England and UK."
So the plan was to travel to Asia like India, China, Nepal, and Southeast Asia. We did that for four or five months and the intention was always to come to Singapore to try and find work. And if we didn't find work, we're going to go to Sydney to try and find work. And if that doesn't work, we're going to go home and sleep on our parents' sofas until we find something out.
But thankfully, we came to Singapore and within a month we both managed to get some sort of work. It wasn't necessarily our dream job, but it was enough to get our employment passes and make sure that we could stay. Initially, we were going to stay for two years and as I said, that's turned into a lot longer now.
So it will be 10 years in Singapore from June coming up. So, it has been a great time. And I think you asked, "Why Singapore?" Well, we did a little bit of research which indicated that Singapore was quickly growing into the regional hub for digital marketing activity.
And so, given the experience that we had from work in London, we felt it would be a good place for us to go to try and find work. And the location, obviously, personally allows you to do a lot of traveling, well, pre-COVID anyway, so we liked the idea of being able to put a backpack on and go to Thailand or to anywhere in Southeast Asia for a long weekend or whatever.
So that concept was something that appealed to us.
Qin En 04:07
Nice. So both the work and the life elements seem to work out. And that's why living in Singapore became from two years to nine and a half going to 10 years. So when did children come into the picture or the discussion of having children come into the picture?
Sammy 04:21
Yeah. Great question. So I proposed to my wife before we left to travel. And when we got married in 2013, two years after we got married. So I can't remember exactly when the first conversation was. I can remember that we both agreed with the idea of having three children.
My wife has two sisters. And I have an older brother. And between me and my brother is about an eight-year gap. And we're not as connected as I'd like us to be. And I always felt that it would be nice if we have a sibling in between us. It would help bridge that gap.
So I was always thinking, well, okay. 3 feels like a good number to have. So I know that we always had that intention in mind.
But yeah, I can't remember exactly when the conversation first happened. Probably when we were traveling around somewhere. I'd imagine because we talked about lots of things just to keep us busy.
So I'm sure it came up in the conversation then.
Qin En 05:11
Wow. Okay. Got it. And now Sammy, you have three kids all under five. What is life like? Do you even get any sleep? Do you and your wife get any sleep?
Sammy 05:21
It's hectic. My wife does the heavy lifting, especially with the baby. We were lucky enough to go back to England for the first time in three years, basically, over Christmas. And when we got back in January, We moved Yasmine, the youngest one, to her own room now. So the baby's no longer with us and ‘touch wood’ right now, she's sleeping through the night. So the sleepover the past month has been better than it has been for a couple of years. To be honest, we're not complaining at all. But no, I mean, life has changed significantly to what it was six years ago, for sure, impacting personally, but also like professional in terms of work and the way that you work and, and try to manage.
What ultimately is a harder job than work, to be honest, but actually trying to manage the three kids and raise them in a way that you want to raise them.
Yeah, it's challenging, but rewarding at the same time.
Qin En 06:06
A hundred percent, but I'm curious about you, Sammy. With your intention to have three kids and I guess this plan of having them be close to space so that they can connect better with each other, were there any concerns over the potential impact on your career? And I think it's a function of your time, your energy, just because you might have to spend more time at home. Like, tell me about the thinking around that.
Sammy 06:28
Good question. So I've never felt too much from my career. I think my wife's in a different position. I know that she's definitely had a tougher time. She also worked at a big tech company and she'd been there for a longer time, like nine years.
But every time she's gone back to work, I know it's been quite a struggle for her to get back in after maternity leave. I haven't really felt that so much for LinkedIn. There's a couple of things. So the first paternity leave I did was just two weeks. And I really like working for LinkedIn.
I've always had a great time there. I've never had Sunday dreads or anything like that. I've always enjoyed coming to the office when it's open, all the rest of it. But I remember that week was the first time I went to the office, I was just like, I don't want to be here.
I want to be back with my wife and two weeks just wasn't enough. Okay. I remember that most recently we've now got six weeks paternity leave, which is incredible. But I definitely came back this time and I felt, I just didn't know where to start.
I came back at the end of the quarter so everything was in motion and it's a sales team that I run. So the coordination is usually kind of like everyone running around trying to do everything. And I've been out for four or five weeks now. It was about that. And just being a little bit lost, really, and just waiting for the next quarter to start. So I just feel like I was adding value again. So I found that quite difficult.
My wife had it a little bit tough for sure. I think the first, although we planned three kids or that we talked about three kids, the first two weren't particularly planned, I just put it that way.
So if my kids ever listen to this we love you all equally. It was a blessing from the skies, but we didn't particularly plan them. So I think, my wife being in her position, she was doing well professionally and going up the ladder and all the rest of it and it was just a bit of a shock to the system when it starts after, planning for this and then taking a gap out. And over that time, I know she's seeing people climb the ladder faster and wondered what she could have done differently. So I know definitely emotionally for her, it's been a harder toll than it has been for me.
Qin En 08:23
Yeah. So I want to dial back a bit about this. Do you say the first patterns you leave, you took two weeks and after that, you went back. You didn't want to be there. How did you deal with those emotions? Because that's very real. The idea that you just became a parent, you want to be there for your wife, for your daughter.
Sammy 08:42
I think I'm quite a different person than I was back then, but I'm pretty sure I will just swell all up and try to get on with it at the time. I'm pretty sure that's how I would've dealt with it. And just not really share or show any of those feelings and just try and work and then just try and get home and help my wife, and then go back to work and just try and do both jobs.
I think I see things a little bit differently these days and I can’t talk to all companies. I'm pretty lucky around LinkedIn. And now, I know my first pretty well and COVID has helped me align those priorities. And I always say it's family - fitness - work.
That's how I prioritize things. And I don't think I work with anyone who would judge me or be disappointed with me. If I had to move a call or a meeting because of a family commitment of some sort, I prioritize my calendar. So that, for example, most days at like 3:30, my two kids get back from preschool.
I try my hardest to free that up, to do stuff with them. And again, working from home now, it's so very different to five years ago when we were walking in the office, it's a little bit easier. But I think back then, I would have been worried about what everyone thought, where was I? Why wasn't I working?
Before I had kids I was early in the office and I was late to leave and I thought that was important. Since I've had kids, I'm always late at the office and if I could leave early to go see them, I would do it, for sure. And then I would work later on. It's not like I don't do the same amount of work. It's just a different time.
I'm not so thirsty about people's perceptions of me as I was back then, I know that I'm working hard. I'm confident and I'm trying my best. That's me, that inside, that knows that. So if people don't agree, then, so be it. It's okay. I'll get on with it.
So I don’t know if I answered your question.
Qin En 10: 20
That does. And I like the newfound confidence. So for, perhaps younger, newer parents, people like myself who, for the first time, still have a young child, what kind of advice or what helped you to build that confidence up? Because I think that's so valuable to be able to own it and be clear family - fitness - work, that's where your priorities lie.
Sammy 10: 38
I'm very lucky to have had great leaders above me. To be honest who is also in a similar age group and goes through a similar life phase. So like, a couple of my recent bosses at LinkedIn, not recent, but like five years ago, my boss now similar, like young kids, like kind of get it, which I think just allowed me to be really honest and transparent about and try and work with them about how we can make this work. And I guess the advice would be to be transparent and to communicate, right? So like what are the challenges you're facing with it and, and what'd you need to put in place so that when you go back to work, is it going to work for all parties?
So if you're leading a team, you gotta think about your team as much as your boss. You know, if you're, if you're an individual then fine, you may want to think more directly about your boss or whatever. I would also encourage leaders to be conscious of people returning to work or it'd be paternity leave or mat leave.
Again, I think some companies probably do this better than others, but just being honest with that employee, like, what are they ready to take on when they come back? Because I think it will be different for different people.
My wife, I know when she went back this time after third kid, she was just dying to get her hands dirty and start working.
Especially because of COVID, she hasn't been able to go out and meet people over maternity leave. She's just dying to meet people and do some work, but it's going a little bit too slow for her.
But it's a very individual experience. And I think catering to every individual, as a return to work is really important and something that they should be thinking about as well.
So it's not just all along with the employee, who's gone away.
Qin En 12: 03
Absolutely. And I've been thinking recently about how that could even be part of managing or training. 'Cause I think being able to understand and empathize, I mean, we can't expect non-parents to empathize, but I think it's important that they do so if that's the case, so it's very fascinating.
Sammy 12:19
Yeah, well, I mean, one thing actually so, I mean, I'm not involved in much of this, but there is a group on LinkedIn called Expecting, and that is a group with the idea of any returning mother or any returning father, they can get partnered up with a mentor. Someone who's been through it, just add extra coaching support.
You know, and again, I think LinkedIn is pretty good at stuff like this, and I would imagine better than most companies. Those sort of things, I think, can really make a difference. And it's a little thing really in the bigger picture there'll be like a half an hour, an hour, a week of someone's time, someone who's willing to give their time to help someone returning from work.
And obviously, the theme of LinkedIn is really that than a great job, to drive that for a relatively new initiative I think is fantastic.
Qin En 12:57
Yeah, it is fantastic because it's really about putting actions where the mouth is. So Sammy, when you first became a dad, what was more challenging than you expected?
Sammy 13: 10
I live by time management. Everything just goes out of whack when you have a child. If you're very good at having a tight calendar and you're not late to meetings, you know what you're doing on a Saturday afternoon, you know what you're doing in the week, you can throw that all away when you have a kid.
And that's tough if you like that kind of control which I do. And it's something that I'm still battling with to be perfectly honest. Even just a simple thing like a Saturday without children the ability to kind of get up and go do whatever you want, whenever you want.
With children, suddenly, if you want to go meet someone at 10:00 AM, that can turn into 10:30, 11:00 AM, before you know it. And if you can't accept that, it could be quite challenging. It can be quite frustrating inside, as well. So I think that lack of control, It's probably one of the biggest challenges that I'm still going through.
It's not like I've learned completely. I had to deal with it, but I've gotten better.
Qin En 14:04
Got it. I can identify with that. I feel efficiency in the world of commerce drops a lot when you have kids, because when you're adults, you just chop, chop, you pack everything. And you can be out of the house in five minutes, but for children, they need to pack all the bags, pack the milk, pack everything.
Sammy 14: 19
Yeah, very challenging, very challenging.
I know for a lot of people, the number one thing is sleep. That definitely is challenging as well. I've never been a great sleeper, but I think it's consistent. So the fact that you could wake up every two hours is just straining. It's just exhausting.
So yeah, I think sleep would be the ultimate I'd probably add-on and now really value the importance of sleep, which I think like six years ago, I just thought was fine not to have that much sleep and just get on with stuff.
Qin En 14:44
Yeah, I'm curious, Sammy, do you wake up in the middle of the night to get over if your wife does the feeding and the caring when especially your youngest one comes crying?
Sammy 14:52
It definitely did for me after the first one. The first one, we didn't know what we were doing. I did it, I did a lot of them. I wouldn't say all of them because I can't quite remember a lot of them. And then I remember when we had our second one, I remember, my wife and I chatted about it. And sort of saying, there's probably no need for you to do that anymore.
You go to work, it's all right. I think that was good. I think, at the first time, you don't know what you're doing, you just, and I even being there, it's not like it added any value other than just sort of supporting her, which is the idea.
Yeah, so, second and third, not so much, but for the first one, yeah.
Qin En 15:27
Got it. And what was perhaps one or two things, looking back at his past five years, that was most helpful in terms of supporting your wife? What do you think she appreciates the most?
Sammy 15:37
Great question. I mean, I think like, just trying to, just actually being there being, I think it's just little things being there and being present. And I'll reflect mainly on the most recent maternity leave she's had because it's fresh in my mind, especially because COVID time has been really challenging in Singapore.
She can't take Yasmine out and meet another mum with a baby and sit together at a restaurant, right? That was very different to our other kids. ‘Cause she could go out and there'd be mother groups and there'd be all them doing stuff. Her day was just like her and Yasmine for six months and no matter how much we love Yasmine, she doesn't talk back, it's very hard to get that kind of adult stimulation that I guess you need. And it's also very easy for me to get caught up in work and not give her the time, which would be fair, I think.
So I try to do that a lot. I think that those little things would just be going for a walk once the kids are asleep or making time to go to lunch for those little things, having dinner together and putting our phones down and actually having conversations, all that kind of stuff.
Just the little gestures are probably the ones that have the biggest impact. Although I do like sending files from time to time, I still think that the little things that probably have the bigger impact overall.
Qin En 16:48
Yeah, I agree. It's the small things that almost seem boring and simple, nothing to shout about, but at the end of the day, I think those things really matter. As small as putting the phone away during mealtime, which is something I myself am working on. It's hard.
Sammy 17:00
It's hard. We are all, I'm the same. It's hard. It's hard to remember. And it's hard to always say, if I've got a really busy day at work, you just forget and I have to try and make that time to be there for you.
Qin En 17:15
Agreed. Agreed. Okay. So, Sammy, you say, family - fitness - work. We kind of talked about work. We kind of talked about family. Let's talk about fitness. Tell us a bit more about what a fitness regime looks like.
Sammy 17:26
It changes regularly. I mean the biggest fitness thing I've done this year, which I'm trying, is to stop drinking. So, not that I had a drinking problem or anything, but I probably drank too much and I've realized that doesn't really add much value to me, anything like I wake up not feeling great and it's really an added value.
So I haven't got a timeline on it, but I haven't had any booze this year and I'm going to see all that goes on. We'll just see, we'll see what happens there. I've always been.
Qin En 17:49
So six, seven weeks, not a drop yet.
Sammy 17:51
Not a drop yet. We'll see what happens. Well, I'm trying not to put the pressure on myself to have a specific day.
‘Cause, it makes it worse when you're counting down. So we'll see what happens. And so that's quite a change for me. Most of my social events and friends and stuff would always involve drinking. So I cut that out and we'll see what happens. I've been pretty good at exercise for the past few years. It started with a really bad COVID year, where I gained too much weight and didn't exercise enough. And then, something just clicked in my head and I went completely all the way.
So I'm a regular runner. I go to the gym quite a bit. I try to say that I do a minimum of 30 minutes a day of something. It doesn't happen every day, that's what I try to fit into my daily routine now. So that could be like a slow run. It could be just going to lift some weights, something like that, but that's kind of my routine. I need something repetitive and a routine for me to do it consistently.
So if I say that to myself, then I'll come close to doing that. I think. And so far it's been working alright.
Qin En 18:46
Got it. And do you follow any program? Do you have a trainer or is it just more like, "Oh, what do I feel like doing today?"
Sammy 18:50
I've used a personal trainer before. I find that pretty useful. I've got one right now, Lady Ho Wan who's awesome. I do it once a week with her right now, focusing mainly on my mobility. I have had various trainers over time. I think that helps again, it's almost like accountability.
Like if you have a trainer coming up once a week, you're likely to work in between. ‘Cause you want to see improvement over and over again. And it helps with encouragement and making sure I'm on track.
Qin En 19:15
Got it.
Sammy 19:16
I feel like when I'm fit and healthy and eating well, I feel overall better. A better father, a better boss, better person in general.
So I try to stick to that now, but again, I'm sure I have my lows at some point.
Qin En 19:28
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, Sammy, what is perhaps one traditional parenting stereotype that perhaps you have experienced and you've rejected? Or you’ve seen if you haven’t experienced it.
Sammy 19: 41
The thing that comes to mind is, I guess I'll go for the dads on this. I think, as a father, I feel I'm relatively hands-on. Since it's the first, I've wanted to be involved as I said, I was there for the feeding, all that sort of stuff.
And I want to be there for them. I think it's the stereotype of the dad going into work all day and the mum staying and looking after the kids still sort of exists. I think it works both ways, clearly, but as a dad, for example, if you're looking after your baby and grandma makes a comment or says something like, "Oh, you don't know how to do that because you're not really raising the kid, 'cause you're not really around like the mother," sort of stuff still exists, right? And I'm always, I try not to get too defensive about it, and I say, “Actually I'm pretty, hands-on. I really rate the speed and efficiency. I can change a diaper around–”
I really rate myself like that in any situation. Put me there, I could do it. So I think that I think that for me, sort of still exists and I always notice it. And I think I'm definitely not my own. I think a lot of fathers are now way more involved and like, my dad would have been and things like that.
And they want to be like that, they truly want to be part of their kids as they grow up. So as a dad, I think that's one that definitely exists. That's what comes to mind.
Qin En 20:51
Got it. Thanks for sharing. I think that’s indeed a generational shift, right?
There are more parents these days that want to be there, and more dads that want to take an act at work now and that's to be encouraged. So to wrap up our conversation today, Sammy, if there's one lesson you have learned as a parent in tech, what would that be?
Sammy 21: 08
I will go for the importance of communication, it's what I go for. And I'd say that both professionally and personally. You know, it's important to speak to your wife and your family about how you're feeling and what's going on rather than just bottle it up and ignore a problem. So if something is going on with your kid and your routine is not quite right, but actually speaking to your wife properly about it and trying to get an agreement rather than just sort of shrugging your shoulders and getting on with it.
Similarly work, like I said letting people know, if it's family-related, especially and your schedule has got to change and things like that, communicating with your team and with your boss what those challenges are will make the experience a lot better and I'll make sure that people can't make assumptions about where you are and what you're doing.
So, keep practicing better communication. It'd be the tip.
Qin En 21:54
Fully agree. Open, transparent communication. Well, thanks so much for joining us on this show, Sammy. If our audience would like to connect with you, how can they best do so?
Sammy 22:04
You got to find me on LinkedIn and surely that's so yeah.
Qin En 22:06
Absolutely.
Sammy 22:08
Sammy Elazab. E - L - A - Z - A - B. Feel free to reach out and send me a note and I'll always have a conversation.
Qin En 22:15
Sounds good. Well, once again, thank you for joining us on the show. It was great chatting with you.
Thanks for listening to the Parents in Tech Podcast with me, your host, Qin En. We hope you were inspired on how to raise kids and build companies. To catch up on earlier episodes or stay updated with upcoming ones, head over to www.parents.fm to join our community of parents in tech.
There, you can also drop me a question, idea, feedback, or suggestion. Once again, the website it's www.parents.fm.
That's all for this episode, folks. See you next time!
