Episode Transcript
Qin En [00:39]
In this episode, we speak to Royce, head of global public policy at the Alibaba group. Royce is a lawyer by training and his foray into technology began as deputy general counsel at the InfoComm media development authority. Since then he has held leadership roles in the intersections between tech, law and public policy at organizations, including the Singapore ministry of communications and information. Royce is a father to a three year old daughter.
Hey Royce. Welcome to the parents and tech show. To begin with, could you tell us a bit more about your family?
Royce [01:16]
Sure. Hi, Qin En, I'm happy that you invited me to this platform to share my thoughts and my experiences about being a father in tech. So my name is Royce. I just turned 40 in the middle of last year. My wife is a couple of, couple of years younger than me.
I got one kid, a daughter. She's turning three in a couple of weeks time. So for myself, after a career in the Singapore civil service, I'm now heading up public policy for a Chinese tech MNC. As for my wife, she's a legal counsel in a Singapore law firm. And my daughter is three, so she's in preschool.
Qin En [01:51]
Wonderful. That's beautiful. So before I would dive in a bit into, of course, what it's like to switch from the public to private sector. I have to ask, how did you meet your wife?
Royce [01:21]
Sure. I don't have any grand romantic story to share. I actually met my wife in the course of work. Never underestimate the serendipity that can come out of office, but rest assured that we did not report into each other. There was no conflict of interest issues that arose.
Qin En [02:18]
Got it. And when did having children come into the picture, what did those conversations look like?
Royce [02:23]
I think for us having a child was never a topic that was explicitly or specifically discussed for both of us, I think, and just a natural progression of our relationship as we developed from a boy, girl, boyfriend girlfriend relationship, the marriage, it was just a natural course of events.
I think that we're also quite blessed or lucky in the sense that we have a certain alignment in values and goals for our lives and for our relationship.
Qin En [02:47]
Hmm. I see. So are you guys aligned in terms of the number of children that you want to have?
Royce [02:53]
We are aligned in the sense that we're both open about it. We don't have a fixed number per se. We have one and we're very happy with our only child right now. Yep. Again, going to the theme about alignment and values and objectives. We're taking things one step at a time. So as we keep an open mind, uh, I think if we have a second child or even more that’s a blessing for us .
Qin En [03:13]
That's wonderful. And I think that both of you are on the same page certainly helps.
So Royce, I noticed that you moved and you changed jobs from the public sector to the private sector, probably when your daughter was still pretty young.
Royce [03:26]
That's right.
Qin En [03:27]
Tell me a bit more about that transition, because I think at that stage, probably that was when COVID just struck or was it before then?
Royce [03:34]
It was right after.
Qin En [03:34]
There was a lot of things happening. So tell me about the period of time.
Royce [03:39]
Sure. I think it could be an episodic or a temporary insanity on my part and I can blame it on the virus. Yeah. But on a more serious note, I think the virus plays a role in the sense that it helped. It did help to force me to take a step back from the daily grind to really examine my career path where I've been, where I was at a point in time and where I want to go for the future. So that helped to set the background or the stage to really let me examine some of my fundamental assumptions, the opportunity. I think it's also timing, again, referencing serendipity. I was also approached about this role and I decided to take the leap and to see whether I can cut my teeth in the private sector. And that's why I must say that it has been a very exciting journey. I've not regretted it. It's very exciting at the same time, to be honest, so challenging to change, not just a job, but a change in career from civil service to the Chinese tech MNC.
Qin En [04:40]
Okay. There's a lot to unpack over there. But you mentioned relooking at your fundamental assumptions. So perhaps what was one of these assumptions that you realized you were making and what changed?
Royce [04:52]
Sure. I think one assumption was always about the stability around career or even life in general. I think nothing else. COVID does really upend this illusion that we have, that we can really control our life in the smallest detail.
I think they give me a certain perspective to be more detached and really to see things at a higher level at a more philosophical level about risk-taking about embracing change, about treating life more as adventure and going for different experiences, trying different things. Growing my network.
Growing my skill sets and developing new perspectives that I may not have been open to previously in a relatively sheltered environment of the civil service.
Qin En [05:33]
Got it. So it sounds like you had the opportunity to reflect and almost dare to put yourself out for a new adventure. So that's how you continue to stretch to continue to grow.
Royce [05:49]
Correct. And it's trite, but yet true at the same time, this whole thing about not wanting to live life with regrets. I think there've been studies or adding those being shared around, talking about how. If you ask a person he's heard that usually the biggest regrets are the things that they don't do rather than those they try, even if the results are not always aligned to the initial expectations.
Qin En [06:11]
Sure. And you miss all the shots that you don't take. So I guess for you, it was also very much making that. Yeah. Thanks for that. So I'm curious also for your voice COVID happened, you have a new job. You welcome your daughter into the world, is COVID good or is it COVID bad for you?
Royce [06:25]
I think COVID has been perversely good to me on the balance of things. So then it has been very disruptive, but for me, I've been quite blessed in the sense that it did open up new opportunities for me and for my family to get out of our comfort zone. Like I said, to experiment, to try new things. And thus far, I think the results have been positive for us.
So going back to work to give a concrete example, not a hit out of a policy function, it's allowed me to work with different stakeholders to understand how senior management in China thinks. How they look at things. What's the governance model. What's the governing philosophy to really understand what makes them tick. I think such takeaways are quite invaluable for me and I can see how I can adapt and apply them to my own situation here in Singapore.
Qin En [07:14]
Got it. But tell me a bit more also in terms of the day-to-day working arrangements, because you're working from home, I guess now your daughter's in preschool, but before that she probably wasn't? She was at home or was she at infant care? How was that like to balance that? And I guess your wife also works from home, at least at that period. So yeah. With all of that happening, how did you manage it? Were there any challenges?
Royce [07:36]
I think it's certainly very challenging having to juggle multiple balls at the same time, in terms of undergoing this transition to a new work environment, a new culture, a different pace of work. Learning how to be a self-starter also within the private sector. How do I create value for my employer? How to grow allies How to build a network of friends, allies, friendly partners or collaborators? How do we obtain resources? Achieve the key role objectives. Even something as simple as language, because being in a Chinese firm, Chinese is the main working language. And while I have a basic working knowledge of Chinese, it is certainly not at a business Chinese level. So having to do that, having to diminish a transition and at the same time, also learning how to practice being a father, in addition to being a husband. I think that that is definitely challenging. What really helps is that, I think in being a dad it also provides quite useful context and perspectives, in a sense that it helped me to develop a certain equanimity towards work, in a sense that I think, what are fires and challenges. They really are not existential matters of life and death. So I alluded to juggling multiple balls at the same time and it was useful for me to know and acknowledge that at the end of the day, these are just rubber balls. They are not eggs or much less grenades. Even if you drop them, just pick them up and you can just try again.
Qin En [09:09]
Yeah. And I love that ball's analogy, maybe for the benefit of some parents for the first time hearing it, can you tell us a bit more about what they're juggling and the balls.
Royce [09:18]
Sure. So that consists of taking care of the child, making sure the child is safe, is well fed, changed regularly, is clean, and making sure that food is always there on the table. Having to prepare all meals, having to buy groceries, especially during the period of a lockdown, when we couldn't really get out of the home. To having to deal with urgent messages from colleagues, some of our private sector, collaborators or partners. Yeah. So the challenge always is how can we work in a manner that allows us to flexibly, pivot, to areas that require our attention.
Qin En [09:59]
Got it. And perhaps of all the many responsibilities and things that you had to do, what was the one thing that you enjoyed the most? And conversely, what is one thing that you enjoyed the least.
Royce [10:11]
I tried to operate within a managed or limited emotional bandwidth in a sense that I try not to get too excited. And for the better, conversely, I try not to get too easily depressed or worn down.
I think there's one emotional self modulation skill or muscle that I'm trying to develop also because I acknowledge that oftentimes a lot of the challenges are quite exogenous that are outside of ourselves. The needs of the child, needs of my wife or the needs of my employers. So I try to look at things in a more coherent fashion and try to resolve issues, resolve problems, where I'm well placed to do so, in the most efficient manner.
Qin En [10:57]
Got it. So I guess looking back also at this, how you have grown as a parent, since your daughter came into the world, how did starting and nurturing a family change the way you'd lead teams at work?
Royce [11:10]
That is a very good question. Actually. One important takeaway that I have being a father really is the need to be patient, to be more nurturing. To be able to take the long view. We really are planting seeds and we cannot expect immediate fruits to be reaped. So I think being a parent or being a husband, that's a lesson that I have internalized and I try to also remind myself off on a daily basis. And I think this is certainly something which on reflection, I can see how it has salience in the work environment as well. I think oftentimes in the work context, we can be very stressed. We can have multiple deadlines that are happening, different fires we need to fight. So having the right frame of mind is helpful in order for me to be in a way more forgiving, to be able to tolerate, I wouldn't say mediocre results, but to at the same time require high standards while recognizing that humans are fallible and they do have other priorities outside of work. And how can we communicate openly, to work closely together to achieve the work objectives, in a manner that recognizes that inherent humanity in us.
Qin En [12:26]
Yeah. I think it's almost recognizing that, like you said, we all have strengths and the areas that we're not so good at. And I think being more cognizant on how that differs across each team member, truly, I think that's one of the benefits of being a parent. So I think that's really fascinating to hear looking back even right now. What's the best part about being a dad?
Royce [12:50]
To me, the best part is really simple pleasures just being able to see my child's pure innocent smile and joy. Being there to witness how much she grows, physically, mentally, or socially. The joy that I get out of it can’t be reduced or measured in dollars and cents, which means it's literally very priceless. And I treasure those moments that are happy. So this also really makes all the challenges and the sacrifices worthwhile. Again, it's a very trite statement, but at least for me personally, I do find it to be very true.
Qin En [13:22]
Yeah. Tell me about those moments. What is one or two of those that you really enjoy and how do you create more of those?
Royce [13:30]
I really enjoy just spending time with her. I think to me, it's about finding those pockets of time where I can be with her. So I try to make it a routine to send her to school every morning, as well as pick her up in the evenings. Those to me are very important windows or space of time, just me and her. And during those journeys, we really create a lot of very nice memories. We can just talk about the mornings. Tell about the day ahead for her. I can start off by asking her how was her sleep, what is she looking forward to school, to planning what we want to do when I pick her up.
And then in the evenings, when I do pick up then ask her how her day was in school. And go about our joint activities and evening it's as simple as going to the playground or going to Toys R us or how to browse the shelves. And occasionally giving to her repeated demands for student toys. So to me, these simple pleasures are really, really moments of magic for me.
Qin En [14:27]
Yeah. It's almost like the small things that really matter, things that might not be notable. A big part is just creating those moments when you are fully present with her.
Royce [14:36]
That's right.
Qin En [14:37]
Now, that’s the beautiful moments. Let's talk a bit about the challenges that, of course you face, what do those look like?
Royce [14:44]
I think the ones that are the most acute will be work assignments or projects that are so urgent that I won't be able to spend adequate time with her, where sometimes I would have to ask my wife or I have to ask my in-laws to send in, to pick her up, or even sometimes during weekends to come in to take over some of the parenting duties. I think those are certainly the hardest in the sense that I feel very torn in those moments. Being there for my daughter as a father against my other priorities to be an effective worker and leader in my company to make sure that all deliverables continue to be maintained. So those are the most challenging situations.
Qin En [15:28]
Got it. So it sounds like balancing, basically the Workfront, especially when the piece of tech, the piece of work, it's always changing. You go to sleep one night and you wake up, the world has changed and you have to respond to it.
Royce [15:40]
That's right.
Qin En [15:41]
So perhaps what's one or two productivity hacks that you found to be particularly helpful.
Royce [15:47]
I find it helpful to wake up early in the morning. So I try to be up by five or five thirty. Those are really very quiet moments, which really allowed me to tend my day earlier, as far as possible. also try to think about what is important to be done at the home or the work front, and especially the work front. I say especially because sometimes when it comes to work, it's easy to conflate or mix up what is important with what is urgent. Because there are things which are urgent, but they're urgent not because they're important. So I tried to make a distinction between the two, and focus more on the matters that are important because it could be strategic to us.
It could affect our business model, or it could affect our standing with regulators and for things which are urgent, but not really important. How can I make work more systematized? How can we, for instance, if these urgent matters are run of the mill matters, how can I make sure that the system is in place where this can be spotted ahead of time and resolved in a timely manner?
Qin En [16:52]
Yeah. I really liked that mapping of almost a two by two matrix of what's important and urgent as it's so easy to conflate the two, for example, like a phone call, that's always the classic example of something that's urgent, but probably not important. And being able to ruthlessly prioritize it's something that you as a parent would go through.
Royce [17:09]
That's right.
Qin En [17:10]
And what do you think the challenge would be moving forward? Because we talked about what it is now, moving. What do you foresee the biggest challenge to be in the next five, 10 years?
Royce [17:21]
Sure. I think due to the role of technology, what becomes that much more pervasive, also intrudes on this work-life divide. I think even today, when we talk about a 9 to 6 work timetable, it seems like an anachronism. It was very outmoded way of working today. So to me, the biggest challenge really is this evolution from a work-life balance to a work- life integration, how this challenge we need, play out in the next few years, and also the need to move beyond the label or the rhetoric to really fleshing out what this is, what life integration means in practice, how it can be effected. What is this impact on our work and our family life? On our levels of stress, even on mental health and in turn, how can we put in place policies, programs, you've got to address such adverse impact. This we'll call it integration. And this really spans from working from home to hybrid tools or instruments, to even emails and messaging, “outside of the traditional office hours” or even remote working or holiday.
Qin En [18:26]
Yeah. I think those blurred boundaries do make it a lot harder to protect the time we have with our families, but I think all the more, like what you shared earlier, right? Therefore we need to be very clear in our minds on how to prioritize it, because if you don't have any, no one else will prioritize it for you. So it's really something for you to manage.
Royce [18:44]
That's right. I think it also brings to mind issues beyond the self, in the sense that it does also go into equity and performance appraisal, rewards. I think issues about career progression or even something as basic or fundamental to bridging the digital divide, because actually not everyone, you have the right access to tools, the resources, the equipment, to be able to work remotely in an effective way. Ultimately, many of these issues that go beyond tech itself is really more of a social issue. What are our values and what are our priorities and aspirations as a society?
Qin En [19:20]
Yeah. And how do you imagine your aspirations and ambitions for your daughter might be contributing to society and the future?
Royce [19:28]
My role as a dad really is to equip my daughter with the ability for her to think about herself, to think for herself. In other words, critical thinking skills, exposing her to varied experiences, and also to let her develop her own interest areas. I mean, I can provide her with guidance. I can provide her with tools, with resources, but at the end of the day, I think it's her life. So I wouldn't presume to be able to write out the author of a life or dictate her life for her. I think I want her to grow up and be someone who is confident, who is able to stand up for herself, think for herself and make decisions for herself. I think a world, which is marked by rapid tech changes, tech disruption or geopolitical tension. Changes in social norms are very high. I think it would be too hard to really micromanage how my daughter's life will pan out.
Qin En [20:22]
Agreed. But I think just being able to help her to think independently, even when there's so many differing views, diverse views, but to distill out and ultimately take a stand.
Yeah. That's so true. So Royce, I think one question I have earlier, you talked a bit about growing networks and I think that's a challenge because as a parent, you have your work, you have your family and then test this whole element of home, and you still have to go out to meet people. How was it like for you, especially in, I would say this transition from public to private sector and the idea of building networks. How do you go about doing it in the busy-ness of everything?
Royce [20:59]
I think there's going to be quite a critical role to play, to be fulfilled. Especially because of the nature of the work that I'm doing, which is in public policy. I think oftentimes in public policy, it's understanding what are the key changes in our external environment, what our regulators, what are key opinion makers, key decision-makers, what are the issues that concern them? What are their priorities? What are the changes in laws and regulations and what are trends or changes that are going to impact on our businesses? And in turn, being able to understand this external environment, understand the impact on our businesses and conversely, being able to reflect our own internal values or internal capabilities outwards to build those bridges of understanding and trust with these external stakeholders. I think this process is a very dynamic and intrinsically intertwined process. And for that to really take place, we do need a network. It goes beyond press releases or media statements as important as those are by the end of the day. I think business is really about relationships and is really about building these ties between individuals. So networking in that context is going to be absolutely critical because oftentimes we read in press reports or media articles about enterprise and then we form a very single dimensional view of the organization and the organization becomes like a monolith as well. So I think we do need to put a human face to a lot of the corporate actions to really explain our story better, to tell our story better and to reflect our attitudes, our views better and nothing beats that human face-to-face contact.
Qin En [22:45]
Absolutely. How do you find time and how do you find the right people? I think those are two questions that many parents would be wondering, uh, love to hear anything you have to share about that.
Royce [22:56]
One thing that helps is not pitching it as networking. When we do network, we don't have to call it networking per se. I think it’s a very commercial view. And the starting point is that when we do want to get to know other people, it is about friendship first and foremost, we do need to get to know the other individual on a personal level. I think that's a starting point. So, I mean, networking, the heart of it is about making new friends, getting to know more people. So from that perspective, it becomes easier to carry out this process of networking, to reach out to individuals who are interesting, who are in positions of influence, either are senior or are on the way to a more senior position, to get to know them as individuals to reach out to them and this can be done during office hours. Oftentimes when we just reach out for just a quick meet up over coffee, most people would be able to find a bit of time amidst their busy schedules, We take a break to meet peers, to meet interesting people who can just discuss the issues of the day to discuss issues that are keeping them awake at night. Also to bounce off ideas. Also to be able to provide value to those people that you want to meet, beyond just a beneficiary. Yeah. I think when we do want to network when we want to make friends, we must also be clear with what we bring to the table in terms of our perspectives, in terms of our experiences, when it comes to salient issues that are concerning many people.
Qin En [24:24]
Yeah. I think that’s spot on. And I like the part where you say, don't see it as a transaction. Don't see of it as, “Oh, I have to go build my network.” But really see it more as, “Hey, I want to get to know people.” It's great if I want to make friends out of it and get to know someone who perhaps shares certain areas or common interests, common topics, but less of the functional approach of what can I just get? What's the pure utility that I can get out of it?
Royce [24:47]
That's right. Yeah. I think you totally hit the nail.
Qin En [24:51]
So right now it's when your daughter also is starting to learn, becoming more sensured, for lack of a better word and more aware of the environment around her, probably she just got past, she might still be in what people call the terrible twos. Was there such a phase for you and tell us more.
Royce [25:09]
I find that it's a very fun age for her to be in right now. In a sense that I can see signs of intelligence. I think in the initial years it's more like a one way street. My wife and I will converse with her or we'll talk to her, but we won't hear anything beyond the guttural sounds or cries.
I mean, now I think it is really magical that she can be really absorbed, but able to think about it, think about what we say and formulate a response. So her own personality, her own thought process have started to come out suddenly and started to become more evident. So to me, that is a wonderful period. Of course, she would have episodes where she would cry. She would make a dim. I think that because of her tender years, she may not have sufficient emotional maturity or mastery or control over emotions. And that's where, when I shared earlier about patience, about being nurturing, about being forgiving come into the picture as well.
Qin En [26:08]
So what is perhaps one piece of advice you would give to parents like myself when my daughter is 16 months old going to hit that phase? What would you give? What would you advise me?
Royce [26:18]
I think the best advice I can give is really to be loving. Is really to be kind, compassionate and to be loving. And I mean that not only from from a father to the daughter, but also to yourself, because sometimes at least for myself, I do find instances where I find myself getting impatient or sometimes in terms of the tone of voice that I use with her, the volume of my voice. Subconsciously or unconsciously, those areas where I can do better. And those are then upon reflection or I’ll feel guilty about such lapses on my part. That I could have contributed to my daughter's outbursts. So it's also about me being kind to myself, being able to forgive myself for those areas where I have slipped up and finding the need of being kind and compassionate towards your better half. I think ultimately being a parent is a shared responsibility and none of us are perfect. So I think especially when the child is having a meltdown, the parents also have a role to play and see how we could have prevented it. Or is there anything that we did that might have contributed to it, or even whether we are able to manage the meltdown in an effective manner.
Qin En [27:26]
To be kind, to be patient and to be understanding to our kids. And I think that's good advice because I think so often as parents, I myself tend to assume a more superior position as like wanting things to be done a certain way, because I think I know best, but yeah, I think this is very timely advice.
So to sum up today's conversation Royce. If there's one lesson you've learned as a parent in tech, what would that be? Other than being kind.
Royce [27:50]
You got me there. I would see that one important takeaway really is to be clear why we are doing what we're doing. And I love the fact that you call your podcast, mothers or fathers in tech. Because to me, it shows that we have our priorities first and foremost, I think we are parents. We're not employees or we're not business owners or civil servants. First of all, at least for me, I think, I don't know whether this is also a deliberate choice in, in language when you name your podcast. I think for the most we are parents and we happen to be working in technology. So to me, that sequence or the order of words, it's very important. So this identity of me being a dad, being a father to a child and being a husband to a wife, it sets the stage for why I'm doing the work that I do within technology. At the end of the day. I think those are the goals. Those are the key objectives. So while work is definitely important, I think I derive a lot of value. I derive a lot of meaning and purpose being a leader, being a worker within technology. I do not also want to be defined by that, think that helps to contextualize, that helps to prioritize some of the work that I do, especially in the event where conflicts between those roles veer in.
Qin En [29:08]
Yeah. I think what you mentioned is spot on, you are a parent, you are a father first and foremost, and it's so often that we let our work define who we are, be the part that we're most proud of. But I think being able to really know what's important and get back to the core of who we are and who will be remembered for eventually that's beautiful.
Royce [29:29]
Yeah. Thanks much. Yes, that’s a great summary.
Qin En [29:33]
Thanks as well Royce! So to sum up our conversation for today and for our parents who would love to get in touch with you, what's the best way that they can do so.
Royce [29:41]
Sure. They can actually reach me via LinkedIn. www.linkedin.com/in slash my name, Royce Wee. So happy to continue this conversation. We hear also the views of other parents and technology being if You agree with me or You disagree with me. Happy to engage with you. I think we're all on this journey together. We can all partner with each other and grow together in the journey of parenthood.
Qin En [30:04]
Absolutely. Well, it was such a joy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much Royce.
Royce [30:09]
Pleasure is mine, thank you Qin En!
