Episode Transcript
Qin En 00:00
Hi, I am Qin En. And this is the Parents in Tech podcast.
Welcome to season two, where we interview dads who are technology company leaders based in Southeast Asia. After hearing from moms in season one, now it's time to speak to dads who are raising kids while striving in their careers. Let's find out the stories, challenges, and advice they have for us.
In this episode, I speak to John, founder and CEO of Doyobi and Saturday Kids. John is an education entrepreneur who started Saturday Kids 10 years ago. One of the first coding schools in Singapore, since. He has dedicated his life to inspire kids to become curious self-directed learners. In 2019, John was recognized as an Obama leader in Asia Pacific. He is a father to five children.
Hey, John, welcome to the parents in tech show. Super excited to have you on board today now to begin with, could you just tell us a bit more about your family?
John 01:18
Yeah, sure. So I have five kids; no twins, no triplets. So the youngest is turning four in October. And the eldest is 11 and three more in between.
Qin En 01:30
Wow. Okay. Five kids in today's day and age, I guess, especially in Singapore, not that common. Like tell us a bit more about what that family planning process was like. Was it always right from a young age, you knew that you wanted to have five kids or more kids? Tell us a bit more about.
John 01:48
Yeah. So my wife is a single child, so I think she missed out on having siblings as, as a kid, right? And so I guess she thought it would be nice to have a big family and my father has nine siblings.
Qin En 02:04
Wow.
John 02:04
So my father comes from a big family, so I guess it kind of runs in the family.
Qin En 02:11
Got it. Okay, so let's go back a bit, a couple of years. Let's talk about how you met your wife and when did the topic of children come into the picture?
John 02:23
So we met, I dunno, must be 12 years ago now, 13 years ago. And I guess we both wanted kids. I definitely wanted kids. I don't think we necessarily plan to have so many, but for her, you know, she's Catholic and she believes that it's God's gift right. You know, if it's a gift, then we should receive.
And so, yeah, and I really enjoy having that time with the kids and, you know, they grew up so fast, right? So the good thing about having five kids is that every two years you kind of like have a, you know, newborn and it it's. You kind of experience it over and over and you know, it's nice.
Qin En 03:07
Definitely. So the question, I guess, is five the final number, or is that potentially something that you and your wife might be open to having more?
John 03:15
Well, I always tell you know, five is the maximum number of kids I can have if I don't want to drive a bus. So I don't intend to drive a bus. So I.
Qin En 03:26
That is a valid reason, valid reason. So John, you know, with all of this, and of course what you do professionally, it sounds like there's a lot of links. But first and foremost, can you introduce to the audience what you are doing, what you're building at Doyobi?
John 03:41
Yeah. So maybe before I talk about Doyobi should start with Saturday Kids cuz that's how it all started. So I started enjoy investing, you know, maybe 11, 12 years ago. And as soon as I got into enjoy investing, I felt that kids should learn how to code, because it's such a useful skill and I'm hanging out with all these tech entrepreneurs, right?
So that's really how Saturday Kids started as a coding school for kids and we were probably the first in Singapore. But along the way, as I worked with more kids, and as, as I started having kids of my own, I realized actually what's far more important is to help kids retain that natural curiosity and imagination and get them to be self-directed learners. So that's really what Saturday Kids is about.
And with Doyobi, we are even more intentional about helping kids develop skills and dispositions that would lend themselves to being curious, self-directed, lifelong learners. So with Doyobi, we basically get kids to learn in the metaverse and I can share a bit more about why the metaverse but the short answer is that in the metaverse we can create opportunities for kids to apply skills that we want to develop. Skills like critical thinking, communications, so, so on, and so forth.
Qin En 05:11
Got it a lot to unpack over there. We're definitely going to go into the metaverse, but I want to go back to the Saturday Kids thing. Right? Singapore, as with many Asian societies is probably one of the places with the largest and booming after-school tuition, and extracurriculars market.
I remember I, myself as a kid sometimes was forced to go through these classes. Pretty much hated it, but it's also just because my parents told me that I had to do it. And of course, I know that's very much different from what you're trying to do at Saturday Kids.
So tell me a bit more about the philosophy, how you think about bringing students bringing children in and really developing that sense of enjoyment and curiosity instead of, oh man, it's another thing that I have to go for. Yeah. Would love to hear a bit more about the philosophy and the culture.
John 05:47
Yeah. And maybe before we get into that, right? I wanna point out the mental health issues and the personal struggles that so many young adults or millennials are facing today. I think in large part is because we were raised in that generation of kids who pack schedules from dawn to dark, right? And we were just put into the classroom after classroom, after classroom. And we never question why.
And I guess, you know, as you become adults and you start understanding yourself better, you start to ask, you know, what did I spend my childhood on? Why did I go through that experience right? What's the purpose of it all? What's the meaning of it all? And that's exactly what I want to avoid with my kids and, and my kids' generation.
So I think there's a lot to be said about giving kids the time and space to discover their passions and talents. I think there's a reason why after so many years, Ken Robinson's TED Talk is still so widely watched. Cuz there's so much truth in that, you know, 18-minute video.
And I think we really need to give kids that opportunity for self-expression, that opportunity to find out for themselves, you know, what they really care about what they wanna do with their lives. We assume that kids are too young to know what they wanna do with their lives, right? But how do we know that they don't know? Right.
Because especially in an Asian culture where kids are raised to listen to parents and follow instructions. It's natural for kids to, to think that, well, if my parents says I should study, I study, right? If my parents says the goal is to get into a good university, then that's what I work towards. And maybe that also, you know, brings up the point that we need kids who can question.
So my three old, his favorite phrase is, "you know, why?" Right. He, he's always saying that, "you know, why?" And I'm just count, I'm just wondering, you know, how long will it be before he stops asking that? Because he realized that actually very few people care about the why, right, people care about the what and the how. And going back to what I said earlier about the mental health issues that adults are facing today is I think because adults are starting to ask the why.
So, what I'm trying to say here is that we need kids to ask why, you know, from age three and retain that ability to keep asking why as they grow older.
Qin En 08:54
Okay. So here's gonna be a hot take, and pardon of me for putting you on the spot if it happens, but you know, essentially what you do at Saturday Kids is offer a place where children can learn coding.
Now I'm sure you have come across students who parents sign and up for it, but actually very quickly, they realize there's little to no interest in coding. Have you ever faced such situations? What's the response? How do you do with such situations? Right. Like folks who are just there grumpy because their parents sign up for it.
John 09:25
Honestly, very few kids are like that. Because when they come into the classroom, it's not necessarily a coding class in the stricter sense of the word, right? What we actually like to tell people is that Saturday Kids is a curiosity school for kids, disguised as a coding school. Because that's what parents will pay for right.
But what we really want the kids to get out of Saturday Kids is that creative expression, right? And actually, what we realized is that kids have very few avenues and opportunities to express themselves. Writing an essay in school there's a standard format, right?
Qin En 10:09
Correct.
John 10:09
And you know, certain phrases you need to add in your composition, right? That's how you score.
Qin En 10:15
Yep.
John 10:16
So, you know, where do kids find that opportunity and avenue to express themselves? That's what, what we offer kids, right? So at least in the Saturday Kids classroom is not so much about learning the technical skills. Of course, you know, as a, as part of the process of learning, you would pick up, you know, computational thinking skills.
You will learn some CS fundamentals, but I think from the point of view of a kid, he is he or she is expressing herself. And being creative and that's what they love about the class.
Qin En 10:52
Got it. And Saturday Kids, my guess is it's an in person kind experience. And earlier you said, Doyobi it's moving to the metaverse like, tell me a bit more about that transition. How did Doyobi come out and, yeah, let's start with that. Then I'm gonna ask you, what is the metaverse?
John 11:09
The idea behind the, we actually came out of a conversation I had with a founder I had invested in. So his name is Kai and he runs Rock Acedemy, which is a coding bootcamp for adults.
Qin En 11:24
Yep.
John 11:24
So one day we were chatting and I just ask him out of curiosity, what is the number one attribute you see in your best student? And he said communication skills. So that really surprised me, right? Cause it's a coding bootcamp.
So I asked him, you know, why is communication skills so important? And then he explained, you know, the, the importance of being able to articulate your doubts, which makes you a better and more effective learner being able to interview well. So you get a job at, you know, a software company. Being able to manage people as you become VP of engineering. All of these take communication skills, right?
So through that conversation, I realized that I know so many founders, I have invested in so many over the years. Why don't I go to them and ask them, what is the number one skill you hire for today? And then based on what they tell me, we design a course or a curriculum to help kids learn these skills. So that's how Doyobi came about.
Qin En 12:31
Got it. So almost reverse engineering, the jobs of the future, preparing students for it. Just so I get some clarity, what is the age range that you are targeting for both Saturday Kids and Doyobi?
John 12:43
So Saturday Kids is much wider, so 5 to 16.
Qin En 12:48
Right.
John 12:48
And Doyobi is 8 to 12.
Qin En 12:51
Got it. And so for these students who are 8 to 12, what is the metaverse student?
John 12:57
I think it's just a virtual world, right? I don't think anybody has agreed on a definition of the metaverse. Some people say that it has to be 3D. You know, some people say it's okay to be in 2D.
For us, the metaverse is simply a virtual world. And just so that the parents listening to this know it does not require a headset, at least not, not in the Doyobi metaverse right. So it is not virtual reality. The reason why we decided to run our courses in the metaverse is simply that I believe the most effective way for kids to learn skills like critical thinking or collaboration or communication is by applying and practicing these skills.
So the metaverse allows us to manufacture and design opportunities and situations for kids to apply these skills. So an example I like to give is I can explain to a 10-year-old what critical thinking is, right? And, you know, spend time talking him through examples of critical thinking, but that is not nearly as effective as putting him in a situation where he has to make a decision, right?
And going through the outcome of that decision and reflecting on, you know, how he made that decision and what he would do differently next time, right? So I think that practice and that learning from your mistake is really how you build skills.
Qin En 14:35
Got it. And I guess just building on the example of critical thinking. A very important part is also being able to define direct scenarios and environments where they're able to practice this. Out of curiosity what is perhaps an example of a scenario environment in the metaverse that you set up that helps to practice their critical thinking?
John 14:56
One of the more popular quests we have is a zombie apocalypse quest. And so the kids, well, the, the very first lesson, we basically plot them with the news. Right? So all of the news, so they have to discern what's real and what's fake and that's very applicable to real life, right? Cause there's so much fake news.
They have to decide. Okay, which piece of news here is, is real. And if it's real, what do we do with it? Right. So that is already critical thinking. And then in subsequent sessions, they survive the zombies. They have to build a new settlement. And so we give them three options. Right? You can build your settlement in the mountain, the forest or the beach. And we give the pros and cons of each option.
So then again, you have to go thinking to think about, you know, what do you need to survive, right? And each option will give you the best chances of survival. And then because every kid has an opinion, right? Then in that group, they have to learn to debate discuss, negotiate and come to an agreement, which is exactly what you know, we do in real life right. At work, it's about coming to, to, to a consensus. Absolutely.
Qin En 16:13
Wow. Okay. Now I can see why it's interesting and it doesn't feel like another tuition class for them, right? It's almost a coming on an adventure.
So, you know, we mentioned critical thinking as one of the key skills. What are perhaps some of the other skills that you think are sorely lacking, but are gonna be really important as children of this generation grow up?
John 16:35
Yeah. So nobody can agree on a standard term for these skills. So some people call it soft skills, or life skills, or 21st-century skills, foundational skills, or transferable skills. But I think skills like communication, collaboration, creativity, and citizenship, right? I think these are all skills that are really needed at work.
And going beyond skills, I think it's also about dispositions. So dispositions like confidence and resilience. How do we help kids to become more adaptable? Right. So I think it's a, it is a combination of skills and disposition.
And the important thing is to be intentional about helping kids develop these skills. So I think one of the big, biggest challenges, and also the most common pushback when we speak to parents is the parents will say, well, my kid will learn these skills eventually at some point. And my question is how, right?
Like if no one is teaching them, they don't just learn these skills magically, right? Some parents will say, oh, you know, they will learn it when they become adults and they go into the workplace. I'm like, isn't that too late? You know? Don't you want your child to be confident, to be adaptable even before they become adults.
And I also one important point to note, and maybe this will resonate with parents is that these skills are also learning skills. So having these skills and these dispositions will help a child become a better learner to the Rock Academy example. Right? If you are a better communicator, you are more able to articulate what you don't understand, which makes it much easier for you to learn something.
Qin En 18:31
Got it. Now it's interesting because all these skills that you've mentioned, communication, critical thinking, and dispositions, I think there's no denial, right? That these are important. And I think there's a lot of literature, a lot of things that social media that can emphasize that.
But I guess the pertinent question is how is that taught? How is that instructed? How is that even facilitated in, I would say a more closed environment, right?
So I guess the specific question I have is what is the role of a Saturday Kid's or Doyobi's instructor in helping students to learn those skills? Because it's communication, critical thinking, it's not the kind of thing that I can just say, this is ABC, you memorize it, and then you are a better communicator. Right? So tell me a bit more about how the pedagogy, the instruction, the teaching, how does that look like?
John 19:20
Yeah. So we actually try to avoid using the words teacher and teach at Doyobi and also at Saturday Kids. Because, we think that kids learn these skills, but we don't necessarily teach them.
Qin En 19:33
Yes.
John 19:34
And so the role of the adult in the Doyobi class is a facilitator.
Qin En 19:39
Right.
John 19:40
And it actually is quite difficult to find skilled facilitators in this part of the world. So much of education is basically one direction, right? Is the stage on stage, right? And you know, the kids are just passively listening and, and absorbing and trying to memorize everything that this stage is saying.
And that's not how kids learn at least, you know, not when they're learning skills, like critical thinking. So, the role of the facilitator is really to get the kids to engage with each other. Because obviously, you know, there'll be kids who are much more outspoken and kids who are much more reserved, right?
So how does the facilitator get the reserved kid to speak up and get the more outspoken kid to give other people a chance to, to share their opinions? And, you know, that's just one example. Also in, you know, when the kids are negotiating and amongst themselves, right? How does the facilitator step into kind of mediate and help them, you know, reach a consensus.
So these are quite specific skills and it's really not easy to find facilitators who can do this with 10 year olds. And so I, I guess that's the other advantage of doing everything in the metaverse. Because then we are not limited to talent where we are, so we look for facilitators all over the world.
Qin En 21:12
Interesting, interesting. So I think a big part of this is also just unlocking, facilitating the, the development and the practice of their skills. Of course, one avenue to learn them would be at places like Saturday Kids and Doyobi. But for parents, right? If I'm a parent, I'm thinking about how I can create some of those opportunities for my kids to, to develop, to grow. What is your advice to them?
John 21:37
So the first thing is give more unstructured play time to, to your child, right? The temptation is to pack your child's schedule because you, you feel like, you know, every hour that my child is not doing something is wasted time.
But actually unstructured time and being bored is, is great. Because then your child has to learn how to not be bored, right? And learn to be interested in the things or the people around him or her.
And also, I think that feeling of boredom is something that helps a child kind of develop their, their correct and personality. Because, you know, if they are constantly stimulated or if they're just, they're just shuffled from one class to another, then there is no time and space for them to even think and reflect. So I, I think unstructured playtime is probably a, a big one.
The second one is I guess, to role model what you want your kids to develop, right? So you can't expect that your child would be curious and self-directed if you yourself, you know, after work, you just wanna watch Netflix, right? Or if you have no interest in learning anything, right?
Cause for adults, it's really important that you are learning something all the time. And I was just thinking that I actually spend quite a lot of money every month on private lessons for a variety of things that I'm interested in, right? So I've been learning Japanese for, for years. I started long boarding about two years ago.
So I, I do weekly private classes. And then as I got older, I, I realized that, okay, I need to strengthen my course. So now I have private Pilates class, right? And my point is that there's so much to, to learn. And as a parent, you need to model this for your child. Help your child understand that learning is not confined to the classroom, and it's not limited to the four subjects that you have to sit for an example.
Qin En 23:53
I think that's interesting, right? Because also one, one challenge that I think parents have, it's this desire to do exactly, like you said, to model, to create opportunities or unstructured playtime. But I, I still feel like we live in an environment where there's this stereotype, this notion that, Hey, you need good grades to get anywhere in life.
Yeah. We'd love to hear a bit more about your thoughts on, on that. Right? Cause I think that definitely is changing, but it's changing slowly, right? It's not as fast as we like to see there's this tension that exists between getting grades that ultimately you get into a good enough school versus this whole, I would say a lot more holistic development. So we'd love to hear thoughts around these, this tension.
John 24:34
Yeah. So when I ask these founders, you know, what do you hire for today? I don't think anybody said first of all, I need to look at their grades. Because for them it's completely irrelevant, right? You know, it's what if you got straight A's for, you know, your your high school years.
It, what matters to employers is how can you contribute to the organization from day one? What can you do, you know, in my organization that will help us get better or get bigger? And, and so the response that I get from asking these founders, you know, they'll say things like critical thinking or, or reasoning from first principles, problem solving, communication skills, activity.
And I reckon that at some point, especially for certain jobs that require more problem solving skills or more imagination, employers will, will stop hiring based on academic credentials. And start hiring based on portfolio, based on skills.
Maybe Google is a good example, right? So in the past, Google is famous for being obsessed with academic credentials, right? Before you even get an interview, they need to know why your GPA is. But about a year ago, they launch three different certification courses, data signs, marketing, and something else. And then they announced that if you can finish the six month certification course, you can apply for a full time position at Google without a degree. Right?
So point here is that I think increasingly employers are willing to overlook or what academic achievements a candidate has and prioritize the skills that the candidate brings to the organization. So going back to what I said earlier about questioning, I question whether a degree is still gonna be relevant five years from now, 10 years from now. Right.
And I think what's scary is that parents today spend so much money and so much of their child's time trying to help them get that degree. And what happens if their child has that degree and no other marketable skill and 10 years from now employers say, you know what, actually, we don't care about degrees anymore.
Show me what it's got. What's that child gonna do? What's the younger adult gonna do?
Qin En 27:14
Yeah. Yeah. I think that's so true, right? And, and I think the scary part it's that often I, I view this for myself and I have to call myself out. Often parents project what, either they achieved or what they did not achieve on their children. Right.
And so it's almost like you set certain ambitions and those are based in mental models that perhaps still are relevant in our generation, but when it comes to just, it might totally change. It might totally be different. So I, I can totally relate to the part about having to, to be forward thinking, having to do the uncomfortable thing of really asking what would be relevant in future.
I guess related also on that note, John, I would love to understand a bit more about relationship with technology and screens. Right? I think one big part is of course we want to ensure that our children are savvy; they are aware of what's on there. But we also do know that there is a very real screen addiction that I would say it's not just children, but we ourselves also face.
Love to hear a bit more about how you are thinking about navigating that, especially when you run a school where, well, I guess for Saturday Kids, maybe not so much, but my assumption about Doyobi where you say metaverses where kids need to access it through a screen in one form or the other. So maybe talk to me a bit more about how parents can think about navigating that balance between what is healthy versus what is not so healthy.
John 26:38
Yeah. So I think the first thing to bear in mind is that there is productive screen time and non-productive screen time. So to me, productive screen time is when kids are in creator mode, right? They're building something on their computer, right? Whether it's writing code or designing something, or even learning a skill, right?
Skill building is still building something. And then there is obviously non-productive screen time, right? Where they're just watching YouTube videos, mindlessly, or I'm on the fence about playing games. Cuz a lot of parents think that playing games is, is a waste of time. I actually think you learn a lot, through playing video games.
And I'm not a gamer. And I, I never played games when I was a kid. And I wish I did actually, cuz you know, when I speak to founders so many of them actually, they, they said they used to be gamers, you know, when they were younger. And they learn, you know, a bunch of skills through gaming, but it's a double sword, right?
So my eldest son is unschooled, right? So he doesn't go to school with out when he was in primary fall. And we put him in an online school called Kubrio. And Kubrio organizes all these clubs, right? Like 3d modeling, or archeology, or whatever, you know, the, the child's interested in. So that's part of the offering.
And then the, the core offering is these learning pods where my son gets to meet the same kids every day in the afternoon for their daily check in. But the kids are from all over the world, right? And he has an academic person, but they are from all over the world. So I think there are a couple of benefits there.
One is that my son is, you know, he's very global compared to, I think, most kids his age. Because he spends so much time interacting with kids from outside of Singapore. And by the way, that's also something that Doyobi offers, which is we try to get kids from different countries to be in the same class. And the second thing is that in a Kubrio class or in Kubrio checkin, you are expected to speak up, right?
You're expected to contribute. So I think my son is a lot more confident speaking up and sharing compared to kids his age. The downside is that because he has so much time at home, he plays a lot of games or he spends a lot of time gaming, right? And it's a little bit out of control. So on the one hand, I don't want to be looking over his shoulder all the time and asking him, you know, what do you do between 11 to 12? What about 12 to one?
On the other hand, you know, once he gets into a game, I mean, games are designed to be active, right? They're designed to you know, get you to spend as much time as possible playing the game. So for 11 year old is really hard for him to pull himself out of that environment. So it's something that we are grappling with. I don't have a solution.
But all I wanna say is that there's definitely productive screen time. And I think it's risky for parents to, to think that all screen time is bad and therefore, you know, no screens for my kids. One more thing I'll add is this is through a conversation with another parent.
He said, reason he signed his son up for Doyobi is because he thinks that kids need to learn how to socialize and interact online, because that is the future of work. So obviously in school, you learn how to socialize with your friends, you know, in the, in the playground or during recess or whatever, but do you know how to socialize and interact and collaborate online?
Because probably what the future of what look like, right? And you need to interact with people, not just like yourself, but people from different parts of the world who speak different languages, have different cultures. So I think he gave a really important perspective, which is that Singapore parents need to redefine what success means.
Because our generation, right? Our parents' definition of success is if you can go to a good university and you get a good job at a bank or a law firm, or be a doctor, you're set, right? And. It's very limited to where we are geographically, right? Like Singapore is wealthy enough that you can just be successful here.
I don't think that's the case anymore. And that's to the point that the parent is making that his definition of success for his son is that his son needs to be able to succeed anywhere he is in the world, right? You know, if it takes him to, I don't know America or takes him to Peru. He needs to be able to succeed in Peru. Right. Not just in Singapore. I think that's really important.
Qin En 33:48
Got it. I really like that. So, John, I'm gonna ask you, what does success for your kids look like?
John 33:54
I think ultimately you want your child to be happy, right? You want them, I mean, no, no parents say I, I, you know, I don't want happiness for my child.
Beyond happiness. What I think is important is that they find meaning in whatever they do. And that's always been like the north star for me. When I think about how I live my life, it's always been about, you know, is this meaningful to me? And am I making a difference to somebody, right? And I, and I hope that that's how I sea life. Which is that it's not just about personal happiness, right?
Cause you know, you, you can be an Instagramer and, you know, be happy for however long, but are you, are you meaningfully contributing to the world? And there are so many problems the world is facing, right? That humanity is facing and the earlier or the sooner we get our kids to understand these issues, right? Issues like climate change and equality and human rights and democracy. The, the sooner, you know, they, they are exposed to different causes and maybe one particular cause will resonate with them, right?
And so that is my definition of success for my kids, that they are happy doing what they do and making a difference to, to somebody, right. And hopefully not. Somebody in, in their family or somebody in their company, but to, to the world. Because they are, they're just, you know, too many challenges the world is facing and we keep kicking the can down the road, right? And how long can you do that for, you know?
Yesterday, Singapore was 24 degrees; london was 40. I never imagined in my lifetime that, you know, Singapore will be 16 degrees cooler than London. That's climate change, right? I mean, I think, you know, we need our kids to be aware of these challenges and start thinking about how they're gonna solve these.
Qin En 36:10
I think that's so well said, right? Like how can our children be happy? Of course, but not just consumers, but actually creators, contributors and builders. This has been a really fruitful conversation, John. To wrap up our time today, if I gave you a billboard tomorrow that all parents would see what would be on their billboard?
John 34:31
That's a really difficult one. Is that advice for parents or, or to kids?
Qin En 36:36
To parents. So parents would be looking at their billboard.
John 36:39
It will be something along the lines of, you know, help your child make a difference. That that's why it is, right? And, and question everything.
Qin En 36:49
Makes sense. Have the child make a difference and question everything. It's been such a joy joy to speak with you, John.
Thank you so much for taking time off the chat and yeah, really glad to have you on the show.
John 37:00
Thanks so much.
Qin En 37:06
Thanks for listening to the parents intact podcast with me, your host Qin En. We hope you were inspired on how to raise kids and build companies. To catch up on earlier episodes or stay updated with upcoming ones, head over to www.parents.fm to join our community of parents in tech. There, you can also drop me a question idea, feedback or suggestion once again, the website it's www.parents.fm.
That's all for this episode, folks. See you next time.
